Dominionist missionaries travelling as teachers

they travel under false pretenses because otherwise the indian/chinese/arab governments wont grant them visas. i dont see what's so bad about that. i think they have every right to go around trying to convert ppl. as long as they treat the people respectfully and dont harrass or coerce or bribe them. i mean-- as long as the ppl convert of their own free will. in my area, the democratic party goes door to door, talking to people about politics. and so does the PIRG (Public Interest Research Group). it's the same thing-- trying to convert ppl to your viewpoint

and who knows? maybe it'll actually help ppl. e.g. large masses of Dalits converted to Christianity because they felt they'd be treated better there

they travel under false pretenses because otherwise the indian/chinese/arab governments wont grant them visas. i dont see what's so bad about that.

You don't see what's so bad about countries controling entry into their country, our you don't see what's so bad about travelling under false pretenses because they are breaking such laws?

i think they have every right to go around trying to convert ppl.

Why?

You don't see what's so bad about countries controling entry into their country, our you don't see what's so bad about travelling under false pretenses because they are breaking such laws?

the latter.

Why?

as long as they're not forcing anyone to convert, why not?

Why not

as long as they're not forcing anyone to convert, why not?

Well, in cases like this, fraud and violation of immigration laws come immediately to mind. Comon decency also comes to mind, going around trying to convert people without an active invitation, even if you aren't "forcing" people to convert, is anywhere from rude to illegal.

Actually, it's gotten so bad that not only will traditionally repressive regimes no longer allow missionaries (like Communist governments or theocracies of *other* religions) but even *democratic* nations are starting to refuse visas.

Israel, which has traditionally allowed Christian groups in, is now very seriously considering a total ban on missionary groups coming in thanks to stealth evangelism tactics by dominionist groups.

Russia, which opened its doors post-Communism, is also considering strict regulations because of dominionist groups targeting Russian Orthodox.

Iraq's patriarch has called for missionaries to leave his country because of stealth evangelism efforts by dominionists (which have included "bait and switch" tactics, forcing people to convert before receiving aid, and attempted conversion of established Christian groups like Iraqi Orthodox and Iraqi Catholics).

Venezuela's president has asked all missionaries to leave the country because of both their tactics and attempts to undermine the politics of the country. (At least one of the groups told to leave, New Tribe Missions, has a very well documented history of severe coercive tactics--including quite literally forcing people to convert to dominionism by gunpoint and rounding up indigenous peoples on reservations--and also has a history of supporting repressive regimes, in particular in Paraguay. Paraguay has instituted restrictions on missionary groups *specifically* because of this.)

Incidentially, India *itself* is among the democratic governments who have gotten sick of dominionists (as they have had very similar issues with people being forced to convert under duress--in fact, some of the same groups like New Tribes Missions are responsible for the same abuses). (Population-wise, India is probably the world's largest democratic government. This is not to say they don't have problems with poverty, racism (caste-based) and dominionist-like homegrown movements; however, they still are nominally democratic.)

Even in Europe, dominionist groups are coming under increased scrutiny; France and Germany both have laws specifically restricting coercive religious groups that dominionist groups have been screaming blue murder about (because it is very likely they themselves would be considered coercive). The activities of Fred Phelps, Mike Marcaivage, the AFA, et al would be illegal in many other countries due to anti-hate laws that specifically include gay/les/bi/trans folks and at least a few dominionist groups have been charged already under these laws (this is why Fred Phelps is screaming blue murder and threatening to invade Sweden; as it is, if he does make it in and the Swedish forces find him he is likely to find himself under trail for treason as he has directly threatened the life of the Swedish royal family).

I will also note that in cases outside of known repressive regimes (like China or the Islamic theocracies) the calls for bans and increased scrutiny towards dominionist groups is *SPECIFICALLY* because of Bad Behaviour like bait-and-switch evangelism techniques, refusal to register as missionaries (most places that restrict missionaries do have missionary visas, which are simply visas that state you will be there on missionary activity; it is EXACTLY equivalent to the requirement in practically every country that if you are working there and not a citizen you have to have their local equivalent of a Green Card), harassment and coercion of especially indigenous people as well as members of established churches, and activity on the *POLITICAL LEVEL* interfering with national politics.

not all missionary groups are "dominionist". as i said already, as long as the missionaries are not forcing anyone to convert, they should have the right to try to convert people.

No, not all missionary groups are...but the ones that ARE dominionist are pretty much spoiling the works for everyone *else*.

Many countries are having such severe problems with the dominionist groups (and this is including democratic countries) that they're on the verse of saying "to hell with letting ANY missionaries in, PERIOD" no matter your particular religious affiliation.

And yes, the majority of the problem IS being caused by dominionist groups. (as far as the problems that are causing the non-repressive countries to call for restrictions or even bans on missionary visas)

A belated thank you for your comments and citations.

I know that this is not politically correct, but it's my opinion that most missionary work amounts to something akin to colonialism.

Converting people with the threat of withholding medical or other aid is akin to converting them at the point of a rifle or a sword.

As I said, just my opinion.

actually--

learning the local language is an essential part of preparing for long-term missionary work. it'd be really illogical not to learn the language

in fact, a lot of indigenous, isolated tribes only have orthographies BECAUSE of christian missionaries

some missionary groups are concerned only with linguistics and bible translation, most notably Wycliffe Bible Translators.

Sorry, they really don't.

ummm. yeah they really do. what would be the benefit of forcing someone into your religion? they wouldn't be "true believers".

& missionary work is way more than just evangelism. my grandmother, for example, taught Sudanese villagers agricultural techniques.

And I'm sure he did it while expecting nothing in return.

Sorry, they really don't. If they were attempting to help the locals, in the name of their God, I'd have no problem with it. But they're forcing their viewpoint onto other

The previous post said "as long as they don't harass or coerce or bribe". If they're not doing that, in what way are they "forcing their viewpoint"?

Incidentially--before anyone asks--yes, dominionist groups WILL actively try to mess with the politics of other countries.

The AoG church I walked away from actually actively supported the Contras in Nicaragua (yes, as in the Irangate Contras), funneling aid to them under the guise of "care packages" to an indigenous group that was actually at the core of the Contra movement (see http://www.cidcm.umd.edu/inscr/mar/assessment.asp?groupId=9302 for info on the Miskitu and their role in the Contras). This even literally extended to Oliver North going to the church and claiming Irangate was in fact biblically mandated.

The same group later went to Liberia, funding dominionist-friendly groups and even going to the point of setting up "clandestine" radio and television stations for one of the warlords in the area:

http://www.dxing.info/news/2003_04.dx
http://www.dxing.info/community/viewtopic.php?t=968 (notes possible association with High Adventure Ministries, which has operated pro-dominionist stations targeted towards Lebanon and is one of the groups that Israel has specifically noted as having targeted Jews for conversion; see here for High Adventure Ministries' links with other dominionist groups)
http://www.w4uvh.net/dxldtd3d.html
http://www.worldofradio.com/dxld2116.txt
http://w4uvh.net/dxldtd3d.html (also notes that they are working with other dominionist stations to set up "godcasting" networks on shortwave--no matter that *ALL* broadcasters on shortwave in the US besides the US government are dominionist groups *at best* and some are flat out Christian Identity/"Christian Militia")

(Apparently according to latest info the stations may be off air; Liberia has recently re-established government to the point they can hold elections again.)

Incidentially, yes, dominionist groups as well as even *nastier* groups like Christian Identity orgs often take names resembling the US government's shortwave broadcasters: http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=182

Could you imagine the screams of indignation if someone proves that these churches support terrorist regimes? Or that they are actively trying to subvert our government, as well as others?

That would tarnish their haloes really fast- like.

thats fucking creepy

You must be new here. ;-) Many people in this group don't even pretend to understand the difference between the dominionists and well meaning Christians acting out their faith. If anything, anything at all, is done in the name of the church it is assumed to be dominionist meddling with local customs. In the eyes of many here, there is no difference between winning a convert through charitable actions and reasoned discourse and forcibly making a person vow allegiance to some church before receiving aid.

Actually you and those who have argued you are not in disagreement, but your "what ifs" generally don't apply to dominionists. The original post complained about dominionist tactics and your comment defends well meaning Christian activities. Yes, it is my bias that dominionist tactics are not well meaning. That's what brought me to this group, but I have been a little dismayed by the overall anti-Christian tone of this group at times.

I have been a little dismayed by the overall anti-Christian tone of this group at times.

me2. i'm actually not new at all.

Anti-?!?

Goodness gracious bohemian...I sure don't see it. I think most of the people here are very respectful of religion in general and Christianity in specific. I think it is a valid question: is aggressive proselytizing OK?

I do not think it is. From where I sit aggressive proselytizing assumes a superiority of position. "What I have is better that what you have so you ought to see the superiority of becoming like me."

I do not care which religion assumes this position. From Anabaptist to Zoroastrian, I believe it is inherently offensive because it assumes superiority.

I myself am dismayed at the difficulty some folks have in admitting certain practices are destructive either to the individual or society in general. I am glad there is a place we can ask these questions, and attempt to understand each other.

"Anti-Christian"? Surely you jest. I have been adamant in keeping this board away from that potentially explosive tack.

Now, this community is critical of certain Christian sects and their often stealthy conversion practices. Sometimes people have a hard time distinguishing between criticism and defamation. The telling point is even when we talk about some of the less than ethical practices of the religious supremacists, we do it from a position of education and respect. If this were a bash board, that would not be the case.

The overall goal of this community is to educate and engage people in a dialogue about people using Christianity as a kind of a 'sheepskin' to cover up a less than palatable plan of domination and takeover of the government and the dismantling of the democratic republic, with the replacement being a theocracy. These people wrap themselves in the Bible and the Flag, and are extremely harsh to anyone who dares to question their perceived religious supreriority. They do not engage in ecumenical intercourse. For them, it's 'My way or the highway'. They infiltrate and divide mainline congregations, driving away moderate members and turn those congregations into clones of their sects. They attack anyone who does not believe the way they do, 'swarming' school boards, city councils, and political caucuses. They have lots of money, and lots of 'astroturf' foot soldiers. They believe that we're in the "Last Days", and that they can destroy the world, and in fact want to hasten that destruction to get Jesus to come back more quickly.

I can go on, but if you read the things in the sidebar, you'll get educated about these people and their real plans for this country, and ultimately this planet.

Their 'missionary' arms are out to 'seed' their memes in places they consider ripe for the picking. Yes, they do good things, but their ulterior motive is total domination.

Even Belgium (which is a country generally recognised as democratic--even its king is voted in by its legislature) has sufficient concerns regarding dominionist groups that they are now starting to restrict missionary activity:

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2003/24346.htm (among other things, notes on various coercive religious groups being restricted)

What they are deliberately doing is coming in (and again, I'll note this is happening in *democratic countries* as well as repressive regimes) on things like work visas or even *tourist visas* and illegally working as missionaries--again, in some countries, literally to the point of forcing people upon threat of violence to convert. (India, incidentially, IS one of those countries where dominionist groups have actually coerced people upon threat of violence to convert.)

In the case of India, this is being done by dominionist groups that have businesses in the country to get people business visas, and this is actually done by people with tourist visas as well:

http://www.vakilbabu.com/Laws/Citizenship.htm
http://www.indianembassy.org/consular/visa_guide.htm

It does not help that dominionist groups actively encourage their members to enter countries under non-missionary visas:

http://www.imb.org/MissionsPartner/somethingnew/someseven.asp
http://www.cfchome.org/resources/sermons/archives/20041001.html (this one is especially interesting as it flat out admits part of its reason is to convert countries to theocracies--rare that dominionist groups are that frank about it)
http://www.urbana.org/_articles.cfm?RecordId=884

Again, this isn't just an Indian thing, and perfectly democratic countries do it too. Japan also requires missionary visas:

http://www.keikyo.com/jema/directory/

For that matter, so does the UK:

http://www.ncadc.org.uk/archives/filed%20newszines/news8/om.html
(As an aside, the UK is focusing more scrutiny on missionary visas specifically because of dominionist groups being responsible for child abuse cases in the country that have been nationally publicised)

For that matter, so does the good old US of A:

http://judiciary.house.gov/legacy/jlee0629.htm (notes a special exemption program for nuns and assistant groups, but also notes that for missionary activity a missionary visa IS required to enter the US)
http://www.usccb.org/mrs/nonminister2.shtml (testimony from Catholic leader re the "nonminister" missionary visas)
http://www.visanow.com/US_IMMIGRATION_VISA/visadirectory/visas/b1.asp (info from BICE itself on the B-1 visa, which is the visa that missionaries must apply for--work visas are H-1 series).

The equivalent situation here in the US would be someone who got in on a tourist or H-1B visa and promptly started to use this for setting up a church and prosyletising (or even engaging in "stealth evangelism", etc.)

Needless to say, in the US he would likely be deported for being an illegal immigrant or for violating his visa. That's pretty much what *other* countries tend to do, too.

If you don't agree that freedom of speech is a human right, please stop exercising it.

ummm did you create a journal specifically for the purpose of posting at this community?

Not solely for that purpose, if that's what you mean. Why do you ask?

because-- you have no posts in your journal. and the only thing in your info is membership to this community